The following is the transcript of an interview with Sue Gordon, Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence in first Trump administration, and Ret. Gen. Frank McKenzie, a CBS News contributor, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on March 30, 2025.
MAJOR GARRETT: I want to go back to the situation surrounding the administration and the officials use of Signal, a messaging app to discuss military attack plans. In our new CBS News poll- let’s see three quarters of Americans say that this was, to them a serious matter matter. A total of 76% of Americans also said the use of the app to discuss military plans was to their way of thinking, not appropriate, and that included eight in 10 independents and more than half of Republicans surveyed. We turn now to Sue Gordon, who served as Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence during the first Trump administration. She is in Austin. And retired Marine Corps General Frank McKenzie, former head of US Central Command. This marks his first official appearance as a CBS News contributor, and he joins us from Tampa, Florida. Good morning to you both. Sue, I want to start with you. Just break this down for our audience. How much of this falls into anything that you would, through your career, understand to be acceptable communications about sensitive or classified information?
SUE GORDON: Well, good morning, Major. Just top line without getting into classification guides. There is nothing about the information that has to do with operations that is appropriate for this communications channel- none. And- and there are other communications channels that are available for this type of thing, and the risk of loss that comes with uncontrolled communications is profound. So I don’t think we need to argue at any level, whether it was appropriate for this path. Now we can talk about how that happened. We can talk about what they could have done, and we can talk about what we do next. But on the top line, this isn’t what you discuss in those channels.
MAJOR GARRETT: So when the administration, Sue, says, but nothing bad happened. Nobody got to it, so don’t worry about it. How do you react to that?
SUE GORDON: One, I’m glad the operation was successful- yay. But we have a saying that says that every success is a failure, where something went right. And I don’t think we should rest on the fact that nothing bad happened this time. We don’t know whether that communications path has been penetrated. So we don’t know whether state actors that have lots of resources are just sitting and lurking now knowing that we do important things on that. Certainly the information that has now come out for any intelligence officer- and I can speak of this with great expertise, that’s all super useful for the next time, or for understanding the sources, or understanding how we did the targeting, or understanding how we operate, or what our operational tempo is. So all of that information is valuable. So I’m glad the operation was successful. Now we need to deal with the fact that this should not have happened. There is consequence when it does, and you can’t be sure that there is no persistent risk that follows it.
MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, this story has forests and trees. I don’t want to lose the forest. The bigger issue here is a new tempo, an increased tempo of military operations- some of them day in, day in, day in, day-in-out against the Houthis in Yemen. Evaluate that and its importance in understanding the broader context of this story.
GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.) : Sure, Major. And first of all, it’s great to be with you here today. I think the larger story here is actually that we have finally begun to strike the Houthis hard. There’s an old Neil Young song- I’ll lift the line from it, should have been done long ago. Well, now we’re beginning to do it, and we’re beginning to strike effectively at a pace, a scope and a tempo that frankly, eluded the last information- the last administration. And I would argue that we’re doing it because for the first time, we have the political will to employ appropriate military capability against the Houthis. And we want one of two things from the Houthis. We want them either to be deterred from attacking ships that pass through the Bab-el-Mandeb, which really means the Suez Canal. That’s one condition. The other condition would be, if they won’t- if they won’t stop, we want to remove their capability to do it. The second task would be harder. It is within our capability. It will not be a short action. It won’t be what would call a single period of darkness. These attacks will have to continue. They may grow in scope and scale. They’re certainly not endless in time. And we need- we need to- we need to fix the problem and move on to other things. I think the fact that we have a second aircraft carrier that’s moving to CENTCOM is certainly a sign that this administration is very serious about this requirement. The fact we’re moving B-2s into the region similarly signals that. But I believe again, for the first time, we’re coupling genuine political will to act along with military capability. So it’s a unique- it’s a unique moment in the theater, and I’m glad to see that this administration is grasping that opportunity.
MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, the terminology you just used, deter and degrade, can that be done from a distance, meaning aerial and from ship borne armaments?
GEN. MCKENZIE: So, I think we can do a very good job of that. I wouldn’t take anything off the table. Again, when you take things off the table, it tends to give aid and comfort to the enemy. We’ve done too much of that. I think we should leave everything on the table and I would also leave on the table, actions against- against Tehran itself. All paths in this matter lead back to Tehran, and we need to know and understand that. They’re the principal supplier for the Houthis and right now, Iran is finding it convenient to back pedal and to claim that close relationship. But in fact, the Houthis exist because of Iranian support, and now, to a lesser degree because of Russian support, and we need to recognize that, and we shouldn’t give Iran a free ride on this. And I think we have the capability, actually, right now, in Iran’s weakened state, to threaten them very strongly. And I’ll just say one more thing as I close out on this, Major, the first Trump Administration did three things that put them in a unique place right now in the region. Number one, that administration struck and killed Qassem Soleimani, that’s forgotten in the United States, that’s not forgotten in Iran. It displayed American will at a level that has generally been absent in the region. Second thing is the signing of the Abraham Accords, which gave Israel the opportunity to enter the region diplomatically, economically and to a degree culturally. It’s going to be a rough road, but I think that’s only going to expand and last, the movement of Israel from the European Command into the Central Command has actually enabled the very successful defense of Israel that we’ve seen over the last few weeks and months, and is a huge step forward. All of these taken together give this administration a unique opportunity right now and in the months ahead to shape events in the region.
MAJOR GARRETT: Sue, I want to go back to you, because Senator Warner on this program just a few moments ago said he’s concerned that those in the Five Eyes community, meaning our top intelligence sharing allies, will look at the situation – whether it’s prosecuted or not, they don’t care – as careless as reckless, and they might be legitimately encouraged, therefore, to pull back. Working in the Trump administration the first time around, you worked with our partners there, you know what their sentiments are. Do you share those concerns?
[CROSSTALK]
GEN. MCKENZIE: They may express those concerns. I would argue–
GORDON: I think–
MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, this is for Sue. Frank, this is for Sue.
GEN. MCKENZIE: I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Sue, please go ahead.
GORDON: Well, General, anything you have to say is worthwhile, but let me- let me- let me take a run at this. Listen, we count on our allies and partners, and protecting their equities and interests and their sources of information is really important. I- there have been, historically, errors in the past. It’s not limited to this one where you find that- that one partner or another has been unable to protect a partner’s information. I think what’s difficult about this one is two things that the administration does need to address. One is, you really do need to tighten down on how you communicate, because my suspicion is that they were just doing something expedient, and I wish someone on the call had said, hold on, if we’re going to go down this path, we need to go to a different channel. But the second thing is the way we’re reacting to it when we suggest that there was nothing to see here. I think that’s actually the thing that more needs to be addressed with our partners and allies, to say, yeah, we understand that this was not what we should or would have preferred to do, and so to rebuild trust that way. So it’s not that there’s not error. The issue is, are you doing things that inspire confidence? And I think that we know that, just from an environmental perspective, our relationships with our allies and partners are a little bit tenuous at best, so creating something that causes them to wonder whether we’re trustworthy, again, to me, has a huge impact on our ability to advance the things that we want to do.
MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, you’re a CBS contributor, I’m going to give you a one minute time warning on this. Close out with your thoughts about this issue with the Signal chat.
GEN. MCKENZIE: So I think Sue was spot on in her- in her analysis, I would simply argue that I believe the United States remains the indispensable nation in a lot of places. And I think I’m sure we’ll learn from this. I would like to think that it won’t be repeated, but I think again, it’s unfortunate that the Signal chat has really sort of obscured the very good, very real work that’s been done in finally addressing a problem that’s dragged on far too long, which is Houthi action in the Bab-al-Mandab to close the- effectively closed the Suez Canal.
MAJOR GARRETT: And real quick, Frank, when you looked at this, did it shock you? I mean, like, what? You’re talking about that there?
GEN. MCKENZIE: I was surprised.
MAJOR GARRETT: That’s it. You’re learning the whole TV thing. Frank Mackenzie and Sue Gordon, thank you very, very much. I appreciate it for your time, your expertise and pulling this all out for the audience. Thank you so much. We’ll be right back.
