On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- New York Gov. Kathy Hochul
- Steve Witkoff, President Trump’s Middle East envoy
- Sen. John Curtis, Republican of Utah
- Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland
- Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former FDA commissioner
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: The president’s mission to shrink the federal work force intensifies and his foreign policy dealmaking reaches a critical juncture.
Speaking before a crowd of conservative supporters this weekend, President Trump touted his dramatic efforts to reshape the federal government.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): It’s all about common sense. Over the past month, we have confirmed an all-star team of warriors, patriots, visionaries and put the America first agenda into action.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Late Friday, the purge of the federal work force struck the Pentagon at the top during a critical moment for our national security, as the new administration seeks peace talks to end Russia’s war in Ukraine and as a fragile truce between Israel and Hamas hangs in the balance.
We will speak with Trump’s top negotiator and envoy Steve Witkoff.
Meanwhile, here at home, the president takes aim at Democratic governors who oppose his agenda.
(Begin VT)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You better do it because you’re not going to get any federal funding.
GOVERNOR JANET MILLS (D-Maine): We will see you in court.
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL (D-New York): New York hasn’t labored under a king in over 250 years.
(CHEERING)
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: We are not – we sure as hell are not going to start now.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will ask New York Governor Kathy Hochul how she’s picking her battles with the new administration.
Plus:
(Begin VT)
WOMAN: the People would like to know, what you, Congressman, and your fellow congressmen are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House.
(CHEERING)
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Lawmakers facing some heat from voters over Trump’s push to slash the federal work force led by Elon Musk.
Maryland Democrat Chris Van Hollen and Utah Republican John Curtis will be here.
And, finally, with bird flu measles and other illnesses on the rise and big changes ahead for America’s public health agencies, we will get a reality check from former Trump FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
Millions of federal workers are waking up to renewed pressure this morning. Elon Musk ordered them late Saturday to describe the top five things they accomplished last week, or risk losing their jobs. That demand was issued formally in an e-mail yesterday from the Office of Personnel Management.
But top leaders in agencies such as the FBI and the State Department have instructed their staff to avoid responding for now. Just a day earlier, the Trump staff shakeup hit the Pentagon with the ouster of the nation’s highest-ranking military officer, General C.Q. Brown, and other senior leaders at the Navy, Army and Air Force.
For more on that impact of the shakeup, we begin this morning with our senior national security correspondent, Charlie D’Agata.
Charlie, so it’s the president’s prerogative to choose his advisers, sure, but what’s the impact of firing his top adviser? And when will we get a new one?
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Well, Margaret, you, first of all, have to look at what’s going on at the moment right? What’s the immediate impact?
This position as the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff is in charge, as it sounds, of everybody and planning forward. We have the crisis in the Middle East that’s still unfolding. We have got the crisis at the border where more and more active-duty troops are being sent to. Guantanamo is getting built up.
And then you have got Ukraine and the future of NATO. So this comes at a critical time. And the dismissal of C.Q. Brown will have immediate ramifications. In terms of how long it’s going to take to replace that, well, there will be a sort of Senate hearing. A person has already been put forward, as we’re about to speak about.
But, in addition to that, the other top head to come out of that was Admiral Lisa Franchetti. She’s CNO, chief naval officer, in charge of the Navy. That’s a big one.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The highest-ranking woman.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: The highest-ranking woman, and unprecedented in that role. And she was the first to become a fleet commander. There are many firsts in Admiral Franchetti’s career. And we have profiled her when she became fleet commander.
Very highly thought of among her – among personnel at the DOD, including young women who aspire to those sort of levels. C.Q. Brown, again, very highly regarded. They – there was no reason given for the dismissal of these two individuals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: We do know that Secretary Hegseth has actually name- checked C.Q. Brown, saying that he’s criticizing him for his DEI programs and saying that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. .
CHARLIE D’AGATA: … was he given that promotion because he was black? He says, we will never know.
He also took aim at Admiral Franchetti, suggesting she is a DEI hire herself, by virtue of the fact that she is a woman. Also, in addition to that, there’s a – the state in command of the Air Force who was also removed, so a lot of changes.
And you mentioned the word purge.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: And that’s exactly what it is at the – from the very top.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, who is this nominee, or I guess, of – in the process of becoming the nominee, to step into the role?
CHARLIE D’AGATA: It’s a good question. And there are a lot of people inside the DOD who are asking who this nominee is, retired Lieutenant General Dan Caine.
He just retired recently as a three-star rank. That’s kind of important, because this is the first time, at least in my knowledge – it might be corrected – the first time a three-star general was promoted to that position and kind of…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, and not the head of a combatant command.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Exactly, not the head of a combatant command, like CENTCOM or EUCOM, not in charge of one of the armed services branches.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Big promotion.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Well, yes, some might call it a leapfrog.
If he is to be accepted into this role, he will automatically be given that fourth star. But, more importantly, there are certain rules and regulations, that he would have been the first, because he didn’t have that combatant command and because he wasn’t in charge of one of the armed forces.
But from – we have been asking around. And I know people who know him personally. They say, look, he’s a stand-up guy, nicest man you want to meet. There had been some questions about whether or not he was sort of political. I know that President Trump had said that he had met the guy and said that he loves him, as in he loves Trump.
According to my sources, that conversation didn’t take place. He doesn’t own a MAGA cap. He didn’t put one on. So he’s been described as apolitical. And he’s somebody who may not have the experience, but has the character to lead the force.
But I think what we have to look at here, right…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: … we have got Defense Secretary Hegseth, and then we have this individual, two relatively inexperienced people at the very highest level of the DOD.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At a time of global instability and a lot of change here at home.
Charlie, thank you.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Trump’s clash with Democratic governors.
Joining us now from Albany, New York, is the governor, Kathy Hochul, good morning to you, Governor.
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL (D-New York): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know you were just here in Washington, and you met privately with President Trump. In the past, you’ve said the relationship doesn’t have to be adversarial. Was your meeting with him adversarial? And what was your top message?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: It wasn’t an adversarial meeting, but I was very clear, especially after I found that the Trump administration had ended a program that was put in place, congestion pricing, by the duly elected members of our legislature, representing the voice of the people, and with a tweet, he claims that he is the king, and, therefore, he has the power to destroy it.
And I have a problem with that characterization, because we labored under a king 250 years ago, and, as I said, we’re not going back there. So I wanted to take my case to him directly and let him see the benefits of this program, because our city is paralyzed with gridlock. And we had a path forward to be able to make the city move again, and it’s working.
I wanted to just have that opportunity to convey that. But I don’t know that we’re very persuasive on that front, but that’s OK. The people in my state need to know I’m willing to take the fight wherever I have to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, just to explain for our audience, congestion pricing, you’re talking about this $9 toll you put on people driving into Lower Manhattan below 60th Street.
Your fellow Democrat Phil Murphy of New Jersey says he doesn’t like this policy, actually asked President Trump to stop it. President Trump’s office says this is discriminatory against working-class people. How do you respond to that?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: I respond this way. With all due respect to the state of New Jersey, they do not tell us in New York what to do, nor does Washington, when it comes to policies that we believe are going to reduce congestion, move along vehicles. Emergency vehicles are moving faster. Air quality is improving.
So I have arguments that are important, but no one else should be able to second-guess us, because that’s not how our system of laws and states was set up. I’m the governor of New York. I will deal with the internal issues before me without interference from New Jersey or, indeed, the federal government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So this is going to the courts?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: Oh, yes, it’s going to the courts, and I believe we will be victorious in the courts, and this program will continue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, this is not the only standoff between the state and federal government and the tension here.
I know you were in Washington with other governors who were meeting with the president this week. Federal funds account for about 40 percent of your state’s budget. President Trump is threatening to withhold federal funds to governors in order to force compliance with his agenda.
Here’s what he said to the governor of Maine. Take a listen.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Is Maine here, the Governor of Maine?
GOVERNOR JANET MILLS (D-Maine): Yes, I’m here.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Are you not going to comply with it?
GOVERNOR JANET MILLS: I will comply with state and federal laws.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, I’m – we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it, because you’re not going to get any federal funding at all if you don’t.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was about transgender athletes on girls sports teams.
Are you Democratic governors going to start to work together on this? Is there legal pushback?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: What he is doing is – they’ve described it as flooding the zone.
They’re attacking California when it comes to FEMA dollars. They’re filing lawsuits in Illinois. They’re going after Maine on this, and they’re coming after programs that have been duly put in place in the state of New York.
What they’re trying to do is create this theater of all kinds of activity that is trying to be a distraction to us. And when someone floods the zone in a football game, what you need to have is the defenders be very disciplined, smart, but also stand their ground. And that’s exactly what New York governors, the governor of New York will do, in cooperation with our governors.
We’re not going to sit idly by and let our rights be attacked. We’ll work with you when there’s common ground, no doubt about it. Let’s build great projects and infrastructure. There’s areas where we’re going to work with you on immigration and getting the violent criminals off our streets. We do not dispute that. But don’t think that you can just come in and bully us around and not expect a reaction from governors.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know that, when it comes to your state, there’s been a lot of focus on Manhattan and the Department of Justice because of Eric Adams and the ongoing legal issues he has.
In the past week, four deputy mayors resigned. Seven federal prosecutors resigned after the Trump Justice Department moved to dismiss those five counts of federal corruption indictments against – against Mayor Adams.
You know the allegation is that the dismissal of the charges was in – related to a quid pro quo around immigration compliance. Did you discuss this case at all with the president when you were in the room with him one on one?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: No, I did not. In fact, it’s – we’re waiting for the decision by a judge on whether he’s going to accept those – the recommendation for a dismissal. So that’s still in litigation.
But I will say this. We are not allowing the Trump administration to interfere in the operations of our city. And the legal problems that the mayor is facing because of the Trump administration, and the phrasing they have used, and, indeed, an interview that was done by one of his representatives on national television, saying that he’s basically got the mayor under his control, that’s concerning.
And I have to be able to put in safeguards. Of course, everyone says I had the option to remove him. I still hold that option to remove him. It is an extraordinary power. And I know there’s a lot of people disappointed and angry and want something done immediately, but I will always stand on the fact that we are a nation of laws.
And one individual, the governor of New York, should not use her voice and her will to override the will of the voters. We have an election in a few months for – in a primary. I’m going to let the voters decide, but I’m also going to be very cognizant. I need to keep an eye on this situation, especially the way the Trump administration has telegraphed that they want to get into our operations, and I have to be the firewall to stop that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, having said that, does that mean you do believe there was a quid pro quo understanding with Eric Adams?
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL: I am going by what the perception could be. I cannot let the integrity of the administration in the city of New York be undermined by perception that the Trump administration actually created. They created this perception.
The reality, I will never know. But as long as there’s the faith of New Yorkers that has been undermined by what the Trump administration doing is trying to give the appearance of holding the city hostage, those are – but that’s exactly what they’re trying to do.
Again, they’re trying to create chaos. But we have to be smart as Democrats and as leaders and parse through all this and just go do what’s right. That will always be my North Star.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Governor Hochul, thank you for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Joining us now is President Trump’s special envoy, Steve Witkoff.
He is in Miami Beach this morning.
Good morning to you, sir.
I have…
STEVE WITKOFF (U.S. Special Envoy to the Middle East): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have a lot to get to with you.
I want to start on the Mideast first. You have said you are headed there this week to work on a hostage deal. I know Prime Minister Netanyahu has changed his negotiating team. Will we get to phase two of this hostage deal? And can we get that American citizen Edan Alexander out any time soon?
STEVE WITKOFF: So, I – we – we will get to stage two – or phase two. And I’m very focused on that, and I think it’s going to happen.
I’m going there probably Wednesday evening. I will spend five days there as soon as I arrive, making – going to various countries, including Qatar, Egypt, Israel, UAE, and Saudi Arabia.
And, as to Edan Alexander, he’s front and center for us. I know his parents. We talk all the time. He’s critical. It’s one of President Trump’s most important objectives is to get all Americans home. And we’re going to be successful in getting Edan home, I believe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in that second phase, talking about what comes next for Gaza becomes part of that. For that day after, do Hamas leaders need to leave Gaza? Are you discussing that? And, if so, where would they go?
STEVE WITKOFF: So, Margaret, the – the May 27 protocol agreement signed last May 27 sets forth that the phase two negotiation is much about two things, A, a permanent cease-fire, a cessation of all violence, and, in addition to that, the fact that Hamas cannot be allowed to come back into the government.
And I think the way you square that circle is that Hamas has to go. They’ve got to leave.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Physically?
STEVE WITKOFF: And we’re going to – the negotiation will be around that.
I would say physically. That’s correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Where would they go? Has any country offered to take them in?
STEVE WITKOFF: Well, I think – I think the devil is in the details, and we’ve had a lot of discussions around it. I’m not at liberty to have that discussion, that specific discussion today, but we’ve got some ideas, and that will be part of the negotiation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve been quoted as saying that when you went to Gaza and you personally saw the devastation there, you couldn’t understand why anyone would say – stay, but it doesn’t mean you can’t have some sort of right to return, if that’s the policy that works for people.
Does the Trump administration support Palestinians’ right to return?
STEVE WITKOFF: Well, Margaret, first of all, what I would say is this.
President Trump is one of the most sensible human beings you’re ever going to meet. He is – he understands that it makes no sense to endorse old policy prescriptions that have not worked. And what has not worked in Gaza are all of these old policy prescriptions.
So, he’s come up with a new notion. And the new notion is, let’s create a better opportunity for these – for people who have lived in Gaza to have a better life for themselves, better upside, better aspirations for what can happen for their children and so forth.
The May 27 protocol talked about Gaza as if it was a five-year reconstruction plan. We’ve been talking in the Trump administration about a 15-year horizon, perhaps even 20 years. And now, all of a sudden, The Wall Street Journal printed an article yesterday agreeing with that math.
There is a much – level-setting the facts suggest that nobody can really live there in a safe environment for probably at least 15 years. So, effectively, we need – effectively, people have been under this misassumption. When you’re under a misassumption about facts, you’re not going to make decisions correctly.
We’re making decisions based on a real set of facts. And so there’s a lot of work that has to be done there. There’s tons of demolition. There’s artillery shells all over the place that could explode at any moment. This is a much longer project, and people don’t belong living there right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But they could return?
STEVE WITKOFF: That’s – that’s – again, goes to the devil in the details.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Got it.
STEVE WITKOFF: I’m not sure that anyone has a problem with people – with people returning. We’ve had these discussions around that.
I just think the fundamental issue today is how we get phase two done and then develop a reconstruction plan for Gaza.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
STEVE WITKOFF: And for that, you’ve got to have a real set of facts. And we’ve been operating prior to the Trump administration coming in under facts that are just not accurate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to also ask you about Russia.
You are a very trusted adviser to President Trump, and he sent you to speak face to face with Vladimir Putin. FOX reported you sat with Putin for 3.5 hours. You said that you spent a lot of time talking, developing a friendship and a relationship with Putin, and that’s how you helped bring this U.S. citizen Marc Fogel home.
Can you take us inside that room? Did you have a translator? Did you have a notetaker? Were you talking in English? What happened?
STEVE WITKOFF: There was a translator. And, in fact, there were two translators.
And I – to me, the assignment was trust-building and speaking behalf – on behalf of my boss, the president of the United States, Donald J. Trump. And I had no expectation as to how long the meeting was going to last. I was intent on carrying a message from the president to President Putin.
I had been advised that the president – that President Putin had something for me to transmit back to the president. And the meeting ended, I looked at my watch, and it was close to 3.5 hours that we were in there. And, hopefully, that that suggests that a lot of good things got accomplished.
I think that President Trump believes – and I believe because he believes it – that trust-building begins with good, proper communication. And we had really good – we just had a great discussion, me and President Putin. And now it will be up to President Putin and President Trump to work something out. And I think they’re going to be successful.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did you have an intelligence officer or anyone else with you? That’s an extraordinary amount of face time with Putin.
STEVE WITKOFF: I had – it was just me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was just you.
The head of Russia’s sovereign wealth fund – I know you know him – Kirill Dmitriev, told Reuters that…
STEVE WITKOFF: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … afterward, they expect a number of American companies to return to Russia this year.
Is he right to expect that? Did you discuss lifting U.S. sanctions off of Russia?
STEVE WITKOFF: We – we did not have that specific discussion at – at the meeting you’re referring to.
But I think that – that, obviously, there would be an expectation that, if we get to a peace deal, that you would be able to have American companies come back and do business there. And I think that everybody would believe that that would be a positive, good thing to happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: After the end to the war and concessions were made by Russia?
STEVE WITKOFF: Well, that’s what everybody wants.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
STEVE WITKOFF: And what everybody wants, the – the beginning of that, Margaret, is – is – would be a – would be a temporary cease-fire.
But – but the long-term goal would be an end to this. The – we’ve had a – – you know, close to a million-and-a-half deaths. And so, you know, President Trump, the – his – his agenda is to end this carnage. It just didn’t belong to happen – it didn’t need to happen.
And it doesn’t need to continue, not, you know, another day. So we’re on it, at his direction. And I think there is – you’re going to see some – some real positive developments in the near-term future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, thank you for joining us.
We’ll be back in a moment with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Stay tuned for our next half-hour, including an interview with Utah Republican Senator John Curtis.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. We return to our conversation with Utah Republican Senator John Curtis.
Good to see you here in person, Senator.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): It’s nice to be in person. Good morning. And lots to talk about today.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Absolutely.
I want to get your perspective on the decision by the president on Friday to dismiss not only the chair of the Joint Chiefs but also five other senior military officers. The former chair of the Joint Chiefs, General Martin Dempsey, released a statement saying, “trust should be based on leadership, integrity and performance. To relieve a senior officer not for a lack of one of those qualities but for a real or perceived disagreement in their beliefs harmfully politicizes the military profession.”
Are you concerned that’s what’s happening here?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: You know, I think we have to stop and look what happened really last November. And one of my colleagues describe it this way, it was a stop the car moment. Those of us who have had young kids and been on family vacations know what a stop the car moment is. It’s, kids, you’re so disruptive, we’re stopping the car.
And I think in many ways the American people said, stop the car. We want dramatic change. We’re unhappy with what’s happening at the border, we’re unhappy with the economy, we’re unhappy with so many things. You keep promising that you’re going to cut spending, and you don’t. Stop the car. And so people really shouldn’t be surprised that this is a stop the car moment. We don’t get to go to Disneyland until we figure this out. And I think that’s what people are seeing right now in Washington.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you think part of the public frustration, or that there was correct to be frustration, with the leadership at the Pentagon or the president’s top military adviser?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Look, we elected a commander in chief last November. This is his discretion. They want change. The people want change.
We all knew what we were getting with President Trump, right? Nobody should be really surprised at the – at these dramatic shocks to the system. The system needs a shock. And I think you’re – what you’re seeing as a result of that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is concern, though, at a time of geopolitical risk, as our Pentagon correspondent was suggesting there, that, you know, carrying the institutional knowledge with you through a transition, we’re still at the beginning of the Trump administration, certainly, that there could be a hiccup there or some complication.
I mean, General Caine is – or Lieutenant General Caine is a – is a three star. He’s retired. It’s not clear if he needs a congressional waiver or not to take this job because he didn’t run a combatant command.
Do you know how complicated it will be to get him in place, or how long?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: So, listen, yes, it – I don’t. And I’m not overly worried about that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: I’ll come back to this, the American people have asked for change. They’ve lost – lost confidence in so many things. They want to see dramatic change. That – that was a stop the car moment. And what happened at the Pentagon was a stop the car moment. Let’s make some change.
We’ve tried subtle changes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: We’ve tried the easy changes. We’ve tried working around the edges. And I think the American people are saying, it didn’t work. Let’s – let’s do something more dramatic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we’ve certainly seen dramatic. You had the video at the Conservative Political Action Committee of Elon Musk wielding this shiny chainsaw.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s celebrating this Department of Government Efficiency idea.
Yesterday, federal employees also received an e-mail, I’m sure you’ve heard, telling them to reply by midnight Monday to a message with five bullet points of what they accomplished in the last week. Elon Musk tweeted, failure to do so would result in firing.
Utah has 33,000 federal employees. Is that how they should be treated?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: So, listen, let’s go back to $36 thousand – trillion of debt. And we have to do something dramatic.
Now, to answer your question, I don’t believe so. You know I just published an op-ed to DeseretNews.com – deseret.com, and I talk about my experience as mayor and having to do similar things. If I could say one thing to Elon Musk, it’s, like, please put a dose of compassion in – in this. These are real people. These are real lives. These are mortgages. We – it’s a false narrative to say we have to cut, and you have to be cruel to do it as well. We can do both.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s not just about efficiency, though. I mean the president himself has characterized this as getting rid of bad people.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: You know, I regret that narrative. We all know, you know, thousands, millions of federal workers who are good people, who work hard. But the reality of it is, we have 3 million federal workers. Not all of them do. Many aren’t coming to work. In my work – business –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Working from home, you mean?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Working from home. Let’s hope they’re working from home. We don’t know. That’s why the e-mail. What are you doing? It’s not unusual, in a corporate setting, to have people report and explain what they’re doing, especially if they’re working from home. So, I don’t think this is a request that is that difficult. I would ask my employees to let me know what they’re doing. But I will double down on the fact of, we don’t need to be so cold and hard and let’s put a little compassion and, quite frankly, dignity in this as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. And in that op-ed you said, “sometimes it is the worst day of someone’s life to receive a notice like this.”
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: It is. Yes, going back to my experience as mayor, we did have to let some people go. We did a lot through attrition. But every single person we let go, I met with personally. I looked them in the eye. I told them why we had to do it. How can we then help you transition to the next thing. We can do both things.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that’s not happening at all right now, as you know. At these department agencies – some of them, they’re just getting locked out of systems. People don’t even know who to ask. They can’t ask HR. And HR says, I don’t know, if they can’t get ahold of them at all.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Yes. But – but also – I’ll also come back to this, stop the car moment. Like, this is not a normal moment. We have tried. We’ve tried for years to do this gracefully. We’ve tried for years to do this slowly. And we have failed consistently. And the American people said, enough. We’re tired of this. You have to make these changes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, do you believe the president has the unilateral authority to cancel funds appropriated by Congress?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Well, what we’re seeing play out is the wrestle between the three branches of government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: We’ll find out. And this is the beauty of the system.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t have a point of view?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Well, listen, I – I believe in the Constitution, right? I believe this is how we test the Constitution. And people have said, oh, this is a constitutional crisis. And I say exactly the opposite, it’s proving to work. We have the court’s playing in it. We have Congress who will play in it. We have the ability – I think we hold a lot of responsibility for what’s happening right now. We could solve the budget as Congress, we could solve the border, and we haven’t. And both parties, when Congress doesn’t do their job, and the White House, have a tendency to try to solve it.
Let’s let this play out by the Constitution and – and then, Congress, let’s step up, right? We need to do – I’ll be the first to say, we – this is a problem that Congress is, in many cases, has given the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The pushback has been relatively quiet. You’re gently doing that by saying, be more compassionate.
Senator Murkowski was telling constituents the other day, I can’t be the only one speaking out.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: So, listen –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are Republican lawmakers going to be more forceful?
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Well, listen, I don’t know what you want me to be more forceful on. Stop the car. Like, fix this. That’s what Utahans are telling me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, in terms of the congressional role here, the check that Congress is supposed to put on the executive.
SENATOR JOHN CURTIS: Yes. But I also think that’s a stop the car moment. Congress has failed in these – in these things. And the – and the people have said, fix it. So, Donald Trump is trying to fix it with the tools that he has.
The courts will push back if he steps out of line. We’ve seen that. We know that. We saw that with President Biden as well. And that’s the beauty of the system. I works.
Now, it’s very – it’s – the – the people back home are impatient. If you were to walk on the streets of Utah, they would say, stop the car, John. Like, we – this is not good. You have promised, your colleagues have promised, for decades that you would fix these things, and you haven’t.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we’ll see if the fiscal problems are fixed in the near term.
Senator, it’s going to be up to you and your fellow lawmakers.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.
Good to have you here.
I want to refer back to the interview we just did with the president’s special envoy, Steve Witkoff. You watched the Middle East closely. I know you were just meeting with Arab leaders when you were in – in Europe last week.
He said that it is not realistic to have Palestinians remain in Gaza while it is rebuilt. Egypt and Jordan are working on plans for that to be possible. Does – does that proposal have any chance of surviving, or is this idea of moving them away for 15 years going to happen?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): So, the good news in what Steve Witkoff said was that he expected us to get to phase two of the discussions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: (INAUDIBLE).
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: The very bad news was, he did not disavow this outrageous idea that Donald Trump put on the table of cleaning out 2 million Gazans. That is ethnic cleansing by another name. And Arab countries are right now working very hard to put together a plan to show that you can deal with the governance, security and reconstruction, and that you don’t need to, you know, have 2 million people pushed out of Gaza in order to do it.
It is tough. It will have to be done in stages. And they have identified areas in Gaza, few areas in Gaza, that have not been obliterated where you can begin to phase the reconstruction and at least get people housing, temporary housing, as you rebuild in other areas.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But how does that survive if the United States’ most powerful player is saying, that’s not what we want to do?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, this is a big problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Because when Trump made those statements, what he did was fueled even more the far, far right in Israel. The Ben-Gvir, the Smotriches who are just celebrating because their idea all along has been to move 2 million Palestinians out of Gaza. They also want to move Palestinians out of the West Bank into places like Jordan and Egypt.
So, in addition to being a reprehensible idea for moral and legal reasons, it would also totally destabilize the region, which is why the Arab countries are working so furiously to put together a plan that addresses these issues and has a future horizon that provides security to both Israelis and Palestinians and self-determination for both Israelis and Palestinians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are also hearing that the president is closing in on this deal with Ukraine in regard to its mineral resources that can be used for all sorts of valuable technology. What security guarantees are you comfortable with the U.S. giving to Ukraine as part of any of this?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, I think this is all negotiable. But what you should not do, Margaret, is begin your negotiation with Putin by, number one, adopting the Putin narrative, saying that Ukraine started this war, which is just a big lie. And you shouldn’t begin by giving up certain key cards.
So, for example, American guarantees or a future for Ukraine in NATO. However you settle this in the end is a matter of negotiation. But it’s terrible negotiating to give up those cards up front, as – as Trump has done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was extraordinary to hear Steve Witkoff describe his meeting with Vladimir Putin, as he did for us.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I would just say that this is not America first. This is America in retreat. And China and Russia and our adversaries are celebrating every moment of this as our allies are scared to death. And this is not just rhetoric. This is reality. And so –
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is what you heard at Munich last week?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Yes, well, and I think, you know, European allies and others from around the world who believe in freedom and democracy, they’re wondering whether this is just rhetoric or whether this is a real shift.
My warning to them is, I think this is reality. I think Trump is much closer ideologically to Putin and other autocrats around the world than he is to democratic countries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: An extraordinary statement to digest.
But I want to ask you about what – what’s happening here at home, because you sit on some powerful committees. The administration did have some legal wins this past week. USAID, a federal judge said that they can put on administrative leave thousands of USAID employees. Another district court denied a request from unions to stop the firing of federal employees. Are Democrats too knee-jerk to say that all this is unlawful?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: No, this is unlawful. In many of these cases, judges found that the plaintiffs did not have standing, but other parts of their opinion clearly indicated that Elon Musk did not have the authority to do what he’s doing.
So, we just talked about the great betrayal of the Ukrainian people. What we’re witnessing now is the great betrayal of the American people.
Canada – Trump said he was going to lower prices. Right now what he’s doing is slashing important public services that help every American in order to finance a tax cut for the super rich, for Elon Musk and the billionaires.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, there was this e-mail that went out yesterday to federal employees. We know that at the FBI and the State Department management inside those agencies has – have told employees, don’t respond to the personnel e-mail saying respond with your five bullet points.
Can people working at the State Department feel safe not responding? Are they putting their jobs at risk?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I don’t think so because what we are witnessing are illegal actions by Elon Musk. And a number of courts, as you know, have issued temporary restraining orders on their efforts to seize important private information, but also on their overall conduct. So, what the head of management at the State Department said is, Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to require State Department employees to answer these questions. That has to happen in the chain of command.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Even though the president says he wants him to be more aggressive?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: So, the reality is, we don’t – we don’t know what the president meant. But as you pointed out, you’ve got Elon Musk taking a chainsaw to the federal government and important services. And there’s no article four in the Constitution that gives Elon Musk that authority. And the way that he’s been sort of, quote, delegating his authority is – there – is illegal. And the actions he’s taking are illegal and we need to shut down this illegal operation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Van Hollen, thank you for your insight today.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Dr. Scott Gottlieb. He’s a former FDA commissioner and current Pfizer board member.
Welcome back, Dr. Gottlieb.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB (Former FDA Commissioner and Current Pfizer Board Member): Thanks a lot.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve seen these troubling measles outbreaks in Texas and New Mexico. Nearly 100 people sickened. It looks like most of those who have been infected were unvaccinated and the outbreak area has one of the highest vaccination exemption rates in the state. How concerned are you, though, that this could spread?
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Very concerned. I think this will spread. There’s been 100 cases that have been identified so far. There’s probably many more than that. So, I think that this is going to get into the hundreds of cases and could take many months to try to fully snuff out.
And when you have that kind of a concentration of measles within a community, it’s going to inevitably spread outside that community. When you look around the country, there’s a lot of parts of the country, states that have relatively low vaccination rates when it comes to MMR right now. You look at Idaho, about 80 percent oof children have been vaccinated for MMR. Alaska and Wisconsin at about at 84 percent. Minnesota, 87 percent. States like Florida, Colorado, Oklahoma, Georgia, Utah, around 88 percent. Iowa, I think, is at 89 percent.
And herd immunity is achieved at a vaccination rate of between 93 and 95 percent. And even within those states, it’s not like the low vaccination rates are distributed evenly across the states. There’s pockets of under vaccination as communities have relatively low vaccination rates. And so, when you have this much virus spreading in that portion of Texas and New Mexico, I think that there’s some inevitability that you’re going to see cases exported into other states where there’s low vaccination rates. And you could see a continuous spread across the country. Even at a low level we could get some endemic spread.
And the risk to the United States right now is that a virus that has been largely extinguished from circulation in the U.S. could return and just continue to spread even at a low level. And the U.S. could be at risk of losing its measles elimination status, which would have more profound implications on things like travel advisories that could be initiated from other countries.
And so, beyond just the public health impact of this, which I think is quite substantial, there could be some economic impacts as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: And, finally, when you look at that outbreak in Texas, 27 percent of people have been hospitalized. And there’s been four cases where children have contracted measles that have been vaccinated. So, those were probably kids who only had one dose of the vaccine. But there’s a lot of people who are at risk of this beyond just the people who have chosen to forgo the vaccine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s terrifying, Doctor. And kids are usually vaccinated, as any parent knows, around one year old roughly.
The MMR vaccine, though, this is the vaccine against measles, is particularly scrutinized. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is now the HHS secretary, has accused it of causing issues in children. He wrote the forward to a book questioning vaccines, saying measles is “a disease that is rarely life threatening and a vaccine that is largely unnecessary but carries real risks.”
He is now the HHS secretary. How does he restore confidence in a vaccine that he previously denigrated?
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, look, I think it’s going to be difficult. And as best I can tell, he hasn’t spoken to this outbreak. I think you captured the essence of the argument from Mr. Kennedy, as well as people within his anti-vacs movement, that they believe this vaccine isn’t effective. That’s not true. It’s highly effective. And that measles itself isn’t a bad illness. And I think there’s been some statements that actually getting measles has certain long-term advantage, which is just patently false. This is a very dangerous virus. And as I said, about 27 percent of the kids who have been infected in that west Texas outbreak and the New Mexico outbreak have been hospitalized. So, this is going to be a quite serious illness with long-term consequences.
Herd immunity is achieved at 93 to 95 percent. We’re well below that in most parts of the country. Texas actually has a high vaccination rate and I think Texas local public health officials are doing a good job to try to get control of this outbreak. But now that it’s stretched into the hundreds of cases, it’s going to be very difficult.
This has been a vaccine that’s been studied extensively. The links between – the alleged links between MMR vaccine and autism have been the subject of some of the most – the largest studies ever undertaken. There were two studies done in Denmark, each with about 500,000 children enrolled in those studies. There were also a number of studies that were commissioned by the CDC and the NIH also looking at this in the United States. And so, this is one of the most extensively studied questions, the purported link between MMR and autism.
And I think the reality is sometimes we have to accept no for an answer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That there just is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, and those studies were brought up by Dr. Cassidy, Senator Cassidy, in the hearing, and Mr. Kennedy would not affirm them. Senator Cassidy still voted for him, though.
But I want to ask you about another issue. Our correspondent, Camilo Montoya-Galvez, has learned the Trump administration is preparing plans to use a health authority, known as Title 42, which you remember was used during the pandemic, to restrict migrant entries across the southern border. Now they want to invoke it on the basis of other diseases like TB. Is that warranted right now? Is TB that much of a problem?
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, look, I – I think from a policy standpoint, the administration has done a good job shutting down flows across the border. So, I’m not sure why they’re reaching for a public health measure to try to provide an additional provision, an additional tool. They seem to have done a good job with the law enforcement that they’re doing at the border.
Just from the objective standpoint of TB and the risk of TB being transported across the border, TB incidents rates are high in the countries where immigrants are coming from, but they’re not exceedingly high relative to other countries. So, you look at a country like Mexico. The – the incidents of TB is about 30 cases per 100,000 people. In Venezuela, where there’s a lot immigrants coming from, it’s about 45 per 100,000. That compares to about 10 per 100,000 in a country like England. But you look at a country like India, the incidents is about 200 per 100,000. In South Africa it’s about 500 per 100,000. So, there’s a lot of countries around the world where people come in from all the time where the incidents of TB is much higher than what – what it is in the countries where people are coming across the border from.
Now, you can argue that people coming in the country from South Africa or India going through regular check points where they might undergo some screening, but I think just purely from an objective public health standpoint, there’s probably parts of the world where we have immigrants coming in –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That provide a larger risk of the transmission of TB than across the border.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can you give us some perspective on the thousands of employees who are being dismissed from federal health agencies? Should the public be concerned?
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Look, I don’t – I don’t think they should be concerned. I think that there have been steps taken to try to re-adjudicate some of those initial dismissals, at least within the public health context when you look across HHS, and I’m most familiar with FBA where they’re hiring back a number of employees. And I think they could hire back fully half of the employees that were initially dismissed at the FDA. And they’ve tried to preserve things like review functions and inspectors at FDA. They didn’t do it perfectly because of the way they went about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: They riffed the probationary employees. So, they did caught some employees that I think are in critical functions. They seem to be hiring them back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: You know, just objectively, they look at this and they say, well, the number of people hired has gone up a lot in recent years and they want to reduce head count.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.
DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: And so I think we need to be more judicious about who they target.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Gottlieb, I’m sorry, I’ve got to leave it right there.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for watch. Until next week. For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
