On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Secretary of State Marco Rubio
- Kevin Hassett, director of the National Economic Council
- Rep. Dan Crenshaw, Republican of Texas
- Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, Democrat of New Hampshire
- Rep. Jamie Raskin, Democrat of Maryland
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump’s national security team takes his MAGA movement to Europe. We will talk to Secretary of State Marco Rubio in his first Sunday show interview since taking office.
Newly confirmed Trump administration officials took the president’s shock- and-awe tour overseas last week. In Munich, the vice president blasted some of America’s closest allies about their style of democracy.
(Begin VT)
J.D. VANCE (Vice President of the United States): The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia. It’s not China. It’s not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Also on the agenda, pushing those same allies to make Europe great again by stepping up their efforts to protect Ukraine, while the administration says they will begin direct talks with Russia to end the war.
Secretary of State Marco Rubio joins us from Israel, as the negotiations with Hamas to end that conflict enter a crucial stage.
Back home, more pink slips for federal employees go out and the scrutiny of Elon Musk’s role as the hatchet man for those agencies intensifies.
Meanwhile, inflation is up. We will talk with the president’s chief economic adviser about what the administration can do to curb it.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to “Face the Nation.”
We want to begin today with Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who is in Jerusalem on the second leg of his trip through Europe and the Middle East.
Mr. Secretary, I know it’s the evening hours there, and you’ve had a long day. We appreciate your time. You’ve got quite a busy schedule.
You met earlier with Prime Minister Netanyahu. He said he’s lockstep with the Trump administration, but he can’t share details on – quote – “when the gates of hell will be open if all our hostages are not released.”
Did he tell you he wants to keep talks going to get to phase two of this hostage deal?
MARCO RUBIO (U.S. Secretary of State): Well, I think we share a common goal. We want to see every hostage released.
Frankly, I think – and the president has said this – we want to see them out as soon as we possibly can. And – and, certainly, you know, the world has watched these images of people – and it’s just heartbreaking to remember that some of them have been now almost two years there. It’s a horrifying situation.
So we coordinate and work very close with them. We share the goal that every hostage needs to come home, every single one, without delay. Obviously, the – there are details of how we’re pursuing that and coordinating that we’re not going to share publicly because we don’t want to endanger the hostages and we don’t want to endanger this process.
But suffice it to say that, if it was up to us, every one of these hostages would be home right now, and we want it to happen as soon as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So, the deal stands?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Again, we want every hostage out as soon as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: We will – and we want to see them home.
There are some that are supposed to – under the deal, there are some that are supposed to be released coming up next weekend. We expect that to happen, but we’d like to see them all come out. We’re not going to – we’re not in favor of waiting weeks and weeks.
Now, that may be the process that’s in place because of the deal, but we would like to see them all out as soon as possible, and we continue to coordinate. And that – that’s what we’d like to see as the outcome.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Who wouldn’t want all these hostages to be home and with their families?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.
Want to ask you about Iran as well. President Trump has said he wants a diplomatic deal with Iran. Are you reaching out to them? And alongside that, does the U.S. support a preemptive strike by Israel on Iran to take out its nuclear program?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, first of all, Israel will always have to act in what they believe is their national interest and their national defense.
And so I’m not going to speak about whatever strategies they may have on this or any other topic. I will say that we don’t have any outreach from Iran. We haven’t seen any. And, ultimately, we’ve seen in the past that efforts that Iran has undertaken diplomatically have been only about how to extend the time frame that – but continue to enrich and re – and – and in addition to sponsor terrorism, in addition to build these long-range weapons, in addition to sow instability throughout the region.
But let’s be clear. There’s been zero outreach or interest to date from Iran about any negotiated deal. Ideally, yes, I would love to wake up one day and hear the news that Iran has decided not to pursue a nuclear weapon, not to sponsor terrorism, and reengage in the world as a – as a – as a normal government.
We’ve had no indication of any of that, not just now, but for 30 years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you head from Israel to Saudi Arabia next. I know you’ll be talking about Gaza, but we’ve also learned that Saudi Arabia is trying to facilitate this diplomacy with Russia about Ukraine.
Which Russian officials do you expect to be meeting with? And what will the focus of your talks there be? Do you actually believe Vladimir Putin is ready to negotiate and make concessions?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, here’s what I know.
I know President Trump spoke to Vladimir Putin last week. And, in it, Vladimir Putin expressed his interest in peace, and the president expressed his desire to see an end to this conflict in a way that was enduring and that protected Ukrainian sovereignty, and that was an enduring peace, not that we’re going to have another invasion in three or four years.
That’s a good call. Now, obviously, it has to be followed up by action. So, the next few weeks and days will determine whether it’s serious or not. Ultimately, one phone call does not make peace. One phone call does not solve a war as complex as this one.
But I can tell you that Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that could potentially begin that process. Other leaders have tried. They have not been able to do so. When he ran in his campaign and he was elected as president, one of his promises was, he would work to bring an end to this conflict in a way that’s sustainable and fair.
And, obviously, you know, this is the first step in that process, but we have a long ways to go. Again, one call doesn’t make it. One meeting wouldn’t make it. This – there’s a lot of work to be done. But I – I thought it has – you know, even the longest journey begins with the first step.
So we’ll see what happens from here, hopefully good things.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who will you be meeting with?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, nothing’s been finalized yet. I was scheduled to be in Saudi Arabia anyways.
We invited – we announced that trip a week ago, and – a week-and-a-half ago. So, ultimately, look, if at any point in time there’s an opportunity to continue the work that President Trump started last week to begin to create an opening for a broader conversation, that it would involve Ukraine and would involve the end of the war, and would involve our allies all over the world, particularly in Europe, we’re going to explore it, if that opportunity presents itself.
I don’t have any details for you this morning, other than to say that we stand ready to follow the president’s lead on this and begin to explore ways, if those opportunities present itself, to begin a process towards peace.
Now, a process towards peace is not a one-meeting thing. This war has been going on for a while.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: It’s difficult. It’s complicated. It’s been bloody. It’s been costly. So it will not be easy to end the conflict in this.
And there are other parties at stake that have opinions on this as well. The European Union has sanctions as well. The Ukrainians are obviously fighting this war. It’s their country, and they’re on the front lines. So, one meeting isn’t going to solve it.
But I want to reiterate the president made clear he wants to end this war, and if opportunities present themselves to further that, we’re going to take them if they present themselves. We’ll see what happens over the next few days.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, to be clear, Keith Kellogg, who is the envoy appointed to help with these talks, says these are going to be parallel negotiations, meaning the Ukrainians and Russians aren’t talking to each other yet.
When you meet with your Russian counterpart, whoever that is, are you going to be sitting there arguing Ukraine’s position?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, first of all, I think that we have to understand is, right now, there is no process.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: What – what we have right now is a call between Putin and President Trump in which both sides expressed an interest in ending this conflict.
I imagine there will be follow-up conversations to figure out what a process to talk about that would look like. And then, at that point, perhaps we can begin to share more details. So it’s a bit premature. I know there’s been a lot of reaction to it, because there’s been no conversation about it, any serious conversation.
But I want to go back to the point I made. President Trump ran. He was very clear. He thinks this war needs to end. And if he sees an opportunity to end it, which is what he’s looking for, whether there is an opportunity or not, we’re going to pursue it.
Ultimately, it will reach a point when you are – if it’s real negotiations, and we’re not there yet, but if that were to happen, Ukraine will have to be involved, because they’re the one that were invaded, and the Europeans will have to be involved because they’re the – they have sanctions on Putin and Russia as well, and – and they’ve contributed to this effort.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: We’re just not there yet. We really aren’t, but hopefully we will be, because we’d all like to see this war end.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No doubt.
The last administration did have contact through the intelligence agencies with Russia, but they didn’t believe there was any proof that Vladimir Putin was interested in talks. You know the history with Vladimir Putin. He likes to use diplomacy as a cover to distract while he continues to wage war.
Do you trust that this time is different?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Yes, I don’t think, in geopolitics, anyone should trust anyone. I think these things have to be verified through actions.
I said yesterday that peace is not a noun. It’s a verb. It’s an action. You have to take concrete steps towards it. What I can tell you is, I know of no better negotiator in American politics than President Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: I don’t – I think President Trump will know very quickly whether to say, is this a real thing or whether this is an effort to buy time.
But I don’t want to prejudge that. I don’t want to foreclose the opportunity to end a conflict that’s already cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and continues every single day to be increasingly a war of attrition on both sides.
I think everyone should be celebrating the fact that we have an American president that is seeking to promote peace in the world, not start wars, but end them, in a way that’s enduring.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: That’s something we should be happy about. Whether it’s possible or not, we’re certainly willing, but it’s not entirely up to us, obviously, but we’ll find out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you did speak in a phone call with Russia’s top diplomat, Sergey Lavrov. The Russian side claimed that you discussed restoring trade, which seemed to be a nod to sanctions, easing restrictions on diplomats, and other gestures like a high-level leaders meeting.
Are you actually considering, is the Trump administration considering lifting sanctions on Russia?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, the phone call was to establish communications that are consistent with the call the president made last week with Vladimir Putin, because if we are – if there is going to be the possibility of – of progress here towards peace, we are going to need to talk to the Russians.
I mean, that is going to have to happen, and we’re going to have to be able to be able to do it across our channels.
MARGARET BRENNAN: About lifting sanctions, though?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: I also raised in that conversation concerns that – well, we didn’t go into any details.
I mean, what we just discussed is basically the ability to begin communicating. I had never spoken to Mr. Lavrov in my life, so it was an opportunity for us to begin to open that channel of communication, which, again, if there’s the potential for peace here, that’s a channel that has to exist.
But let me add one more thing. I also raised the issue of our embassy in Moscow, which operates under very difficult conditions. I raised that because it’s important. It’s going to be very difficult to engage in communication with Russia about anything if our embassy is not functioning. And he raised concerns about his diplomatic mission in the United States.
So, at a very basic level, if, in fact, there is going to be an opportunity here to pursue peace by engaging with the Russians, we’re going to need to have functional embassies in Moscow and in Washington, D.C., and that’s certainly something foreign ministers would talk about as a matter of normal course.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about what happened in Munich, Germany, at the Security Conference.
Vice President Vance gave a speech, and he told U.S. allies that the threat he worries about the most is not Russia. It is not China. He called it the threat from within, and he lectured about what he described as censorship, mainly focusing, though, on including more views from the right.
He also met with the leader of a far-right party known as the AfD, which, as you know, is under investigation and monitoring by German intelligence because of extremism. What did all of this accomplish, other than irritating our allies?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Why would our allies or anybody be irritated by free speech and by someone giving their opinion?
We are, after all, democracies. The Munich – Munich Security Conference is largely a conference of democracies, in which one of the things that we cherish and value is the ability to speak freely and provide your opinions.
And so I think if anyone’s angry about his words, they don’t have to agree with him, but to be angry about it, I think, actually makes his point. I thought it was actually a pretty historic speech. Whether you agree with him or not, I think the valid points he’s making to Europe is, we are concerned that the true values that we share, the values that bind us together with Europe are things like free speech and democracy and our shared history in winning two World Wars and defeating Soviet communism and the like.
These are the values that we shared in common. And, in that Cold War, we fought against things like censorship and oppression and so forth.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: And when you see backsliding, and you raise that, that’s a very valid concern.
We can’t tell them how to run their countries. We are – he simply expressed in a speech his view of it, which a lot of people, frankly, share. And I thought he said a lot of things in that speech that needed to be said. And, honestly, I don’t know why anybody would be upset about it.
People are allowed – you know, you don’t have to agree on someone’s speech. I happen to agree with a lot of what he said, but you don’t have to agree with someone’s speech to – to at least appreciate the fact they have a right to say it and that you should listen to it and see whether those criticisms are valid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: I assure you, the United States has come under withering criticism on many occasions from many leaders in Europe, and we don’t go around throwing temper tantrums about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he was standing in a country where free speech was weaponized to conduct a genocide.
And he met with the head of a political party that has far right views and some historic ties to extreme groups. The context of that was changing the tone of it. And you know that, that the censorship was specifically about the right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I have to disagree with you. No, I have – I have to disagree with you.
Free speech was not used to conduct a genocide. The genocide was conducted by an authoritarian Nazi regime that happened to also be genocidal because they hated Jews and they hated minorities and they hated those that they – they had a list of people they hated, but primarily the Jews. There was no free speech in Nazi Germany. There was none.
There was also no opposition in Nazi Germany. They were a sole and only party that governed that country. So that’s not an accurate reflection of history.
I also think it’s wrong – again, I go back to the point of his speech. The point of his speech was basically that there is an erosion in free speech and intolerance for opposing points of view within Europe, and that’s of concern, because that is eroding. That’s not an erosion of your military capabilities. That’s not an erosion of your economic standing.
That’s an erosion of the actual values that bind us together in this transatlantic union that everybody talks about. And I think allies and friends and partners that have worked together now for 80 years should be able to speak frankly to one another in open forums without being offended, insulted, or upset.
And I spoke to Foreign Ministers from multiple countries throughout Europe. Many of them probably didn’t like the speech or didn’t agree with it, but they were continuing to engage with us on all sorts of issues that unite us.
So, again, at the end of the day, I think that, you know, people give all – – that is a forum in which you’re supposed to be inviting people to give speeches, not basically a chorus where everyone is saying the exact same thing. That’s not always going to be the case when it’s a collection of democracies where leaders have the right and the privilege to speak their minds in forums such as these.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, I’m told that we are out of time. A lot to get through with you. We appreciate you making time today.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We want to turn now to the economy and inflation, which, compared to last January, ticked up about 3 percent last week.
Kevin Hassett is the director of the National Economic Council, and he joins us now. Good morning to you, Director.
KEVIN HASSETT (Director, National Economic Council): Good morning, Margaret. Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I don’t have to tell you, but the rest of the country saw their egg prices at the grocery store go up. We’re now at a record high due to that bird flu outbreak, but also labor costs, and that’s contributing to food costs overall.
When will the administration get that outbreak under control?
KEVIN HASSETT: Right.
Well, what’s going on, right, as you know, is that there is an inflation problem that’s very large. We saw the Consumer Price Index come out, and we found out that the stagflation that was created by the policies of President Biden was way worse than we thought.
Over the last three months, across all goods, including eggs, the average inflation rate was 4.6 percent, way above target, and an acceleration at the end of the Biden term.
And, you know, this is really not just us. You could go look at Jason Furman, Larry Summers, economic advisers of President Biden kept saying, don’t do this. You’re going to cause massive inflation. In fact, Jason Furman has a very thought-provoking peace in “Foreign Affairs” right now calling the Biden economic record a tragedy.
And this is them, not us, right? It’s – so, now we’ve got a lot of things that we’re doing to get ahold of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re talking about fiscal spending there.
KEVIN HASSETT: Excuse me. Yes, that’s right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were talking about fiscal spending there. But…
KEVIN HASSETT: Well, where does inflation come from, right? And so what we’re doing now is, we’ve – we’ve got, really, a multi-multi-faceted plan to end inflation.
And I will go quickly, because I want to end with what we’re doing with egg prices. But we’re going to have a macroeconomic change that has supply-side tax cuts, so we have more supply, and we’re going to reduce government spending, both through what DOGE is doing, and through congressional action.
And so, therefore, the macroeconomic forces that Jason Furman said were a tragedy are going to be reversed. That’s a good thing. Then we’re also going to have a lot of energy production, a lot of deregulation. And then, finally, when needed, we’re going to focus on the individual thing-by-thing pieces.
And so, for example, you mentioned avian flu. President Biden didn’t really have a plan for avian flu. Well, Brooke Rollins and I have been working with all the best people in government, including academics around the country and around the world, to have a plan ready for the president next week on what we’re going to do with avian flu.
In fact, I was editing the thing with them tomorrow. But – but the final thing – and then I will give it back to you. I promise not to filibuster.
(LAUGHTER)
KEVIN HASSETT: The question is, like, why did we do this? Why did we do this? That’s what everybody’s talking about.
But the thing that I always start with when I’m looking at what we’re doing, what the president wants us to do, is, why did they do that? Why did they do that?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Right.
KEVIN HASSETT: And – and there are too many times where it feels like nobody thought about that in the press, or maybe…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Oh, gosh.
KEVIN HASSETT: … the left wing economists. Why did they do that? Why did Biden print so much money and cause so much inflation? Why did he do it?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Oh, Kevin.
KEVIN HASSETT: That’s – that’s what I’m thinking about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Kevin, you know, we talked about that on Face the Nation quite a lot. Quite a lot.
KEVIN HASSETT: I don’t want – mean to criticize you. OK, good for you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, no, no.
KEVIN HASSETT: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, next week, we’ll see the plan on how to get avian flu – how to get bird flu, under…
KEVIN HASSETT: I could talk about it right now if you’d like to, yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, sure. What – what is the plan? Are you going to – – what are you going to do?
KEVIN HASSETT: Yes, so – so, again, the – the Biden plan was to just, you know, kill chickens. And they spent billions of dollars just randomly killing chickens within a perimeter where they found a sick chicken.
And so you go – I just went to the grocery store. I shop for our family, in part because I love to look at prices. And there were no eggs at the store yesterday, just a few. And – and so that happened because they killed all the chickens.
And so what we need to do is have better ways, with biosecurity and medication and so on, to make sure that the perimeter doesn’t have to kill the chickens, have a better, smarter perimeter. And so having a smart perimeter is what we’re working on. And we’re finalizing the ideas about how to do that with the best scientists in government.
And that’s the kind of thing that should have happened a year ago. And if it had, then egg prices would be, you know, a lot better than they are now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
KEVIN HASSETT: But the avian flu is a real thing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KEVIN HASSETT: And, by the way, it’s spread mostly by ducks and geese. And so think about it. They’re killing chickens to stop the spread, but chickens don’t really fly. The – the spread is happening from the geese and the ducks.
And so why does it make any sense to have a big perimeter of dead chickens, when it’s the – the ducks and the geese that are spreading it?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the Department of Agriculture policy has been to kill those chickens, as you know.
KEVIN HASSETT: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we’ll watch the details of that.
KEVIN HASSETT: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But let’s get back to something the president said.
Higher interest rates, as you know, are part of that battle against inflation that the Federal Reserve has been waging. But, this past week, the president called for interest rates to be lowered. Why does he think that’s going to lower your grocery prices?
KEVIN HASSETT: Well, first of all, I – I want to say that I, just this weekend, have arranged to begin once again regular lunches with Jay Powell at the Federal Reserve.
And Jay and I have a long and collegial relationship. And I’m going to go over there with him and the other governors. So we’re going to talk about our views about what’s going on, and listen to his. And that collegiality has been going on for four years when I was here before, and the president very much values that.
I think that the – the thing about…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s not to influence?
KEVIN HASSETT: … lower interest rates – no, I’m going to talk about – well, Jay is going to – Jay is an independent person.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
KEVIN HASSETT: The Fed independence is respected. And – and the point is, the president’s opinion is also – can be heard. He’s the president of the United States.
But here’s the thing that I think is interesting, that if we get inflation under control, then that takes the pressure off the Fed. And one way to tell whether markets think, are we getting inflation under control, is to look at longer-term interest rates that the Fed doesn’t affect directly.
And if you look at it, the 10-year Treasury rate has dropped about 40 basis points…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KEVIN HASSETT: … over the last couple of weeks while we announced our plan to control inflation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
KEVIN HASSETT: That saved the American people about $40 billion, about $40 billion, just from talking about the stuff that we’re about to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
KEVIN HASSETT: That’s pretty good.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but the president’s statement contradicts economic policy. As you know…
KEVIN HASSETT: No. Inflation – no. Inflation rates are already – I’m saying the interest rates are already lower by 40 basis points. So, Interest rates are lower. The one that matters…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re briefing the president on it. OK.
KEVIN HASSETT: … the most for the economy is maybe the 5- or 10- year rate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But on…
KEVIN HASSETT: Those the ones that matter the most. And those are down already. So the president’s right about that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before we run out of time, I really want to make sure I get to you on tariffs.
KEVIN HASSETT: OK, sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because there’s concern that that will add to prices.
KEVIN HASSETT: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because they’ll be added on to consumers and what they pay.
How are these reciprocal tariffs going to work? The president was tweeting he wants to put them on, like, 175 different countries that have a VAT tax, a value-added tax.
KEVIN HASSETT: You know, we’re talking to leaders of other countries all the time.
Last night, into the wee hours of their morning and kind of a late night for me, I was talking to Minister Reynolds from the U.K. about this very matter. But here’s the way I would like to think about it, that, right now, U.S. companies are spending – are paying foreign governments about $370 billion a year in tax, and foreign companies are paying the U.S. government about $57 billion in tax.
And a lot of it is because of the VAT. But if we didn’t have to pay the foreign governments tax, over 10 years, it’d be about $5 trillion of tax that U.S. citizens don’t have to pay. That would more than pay for the tax cuts that we’re debating right now.
And so if we get some of that money back, either through tariffs, or for – obviously, if they reduce the tariffs of that, then that’s good for Americans. It’s going to put more money in their pockets.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KEVIN HASSETT: And – and that’s what President Trump is – is trying to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Kevin Hassett, I would like to have you come back, sit at the table…
KEVIN HASSETT: Always.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … and talk through this in – in more detail at another time. We have to leave it there for today.
KEVIN HASSETT: Thanks. Happy – happy to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Take care.
A lot more “Face the Nation” in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation with more from that gathering of foreign leaders from Munich.
And, here at home, seven federal prosecutors resigned on principle last week. We will tell you why.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
The Munich Security Conference is an annual gathering of heads of state and international security policymakers. It’s one of the biggest conferences. And one of the biggest topics this year was the war in Ukraine.
We spoke to two lawmakers earlier from Munich, including House Intelligence Committee Republican Dan Crenshaw. We asked him about President Zelenskyy’s views regarding what’s needed in a potential peace deal.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand that he has asked not just for continued military support now, but security assurances in the event of a peace deal. What can you tell him about what to expect from America?
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW (R-TX): Well, I just – I just came from a lunch where General Kellogg spoke. He’s the special envoy leading this effort to establish peace. And he’s very clear that the kind of peace we’re talking about is a lasting peace, which, of course, involves security assurances.
And part of that process is figuring out exactly what that means. Even the Ukrainians are talking about what that means. There’s a variety of options, per se.
I think the Europeans have to play a huge role in that. One of the things that gets talked about a lot is where do – European forces actually acting as a peacekeeping force.
The Ukrainians clearly have a seat at the table and then the United States will be the intermediary as we try to establish a peace deal.
But the Europeans need to demand a seat at the table by being uncomfortably aggressive, which is something they haven’t done. You should be threatening things to Putin that actually make you uncomfortable because that’s how – that’s the only language Putin speaks is power. And when General Kellogg is at that table with Putin, he’s only got a finite amount of leverage. And there’s only so much more leverage that the U.S. can – can impose. And if anybody can do it, I think it’s Donald Trump. And he’s already – he’s already said that, that nothing is off the table. Vice President Vance said that, nothing is off the table, economic, military. They will use the amount of leverage they can.
My message to European leaders is, if we want to win, if we want a better outcome for Ukraine at the end of these peace talks, you need to be uncomfortably aggressive. You need to, not just bolster your own defense spending, I mean because that’s a long-term issue, that’s a long-term investment –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: You need to be talking about where you’re going to be putting actual troops on the ground. Stop following our lead and actually take the lead. Let us be actually holding you back. That would be an ideal situation and vastly change the power dynamic when dealing with Putin.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There already is a military security alliance known as NATO. You are saying you think there should be something else or some other entity providing security assurances for Ukraine?
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: European soldiers. I mean, look, Europeans send aid, right? They send weapons. They do the same things we do. They – they – they match it, barely. My argument to them is you shouldn’t be matching it, you should be doubling it. You should be tripling it. It’s your continent.
Zelenskyy had a – gave a speech today. He talked about a European army, right? So, there’s – there’s a lot of talk about this. Of course, there’s NATO. That’s – that’s a security – that’s a – that’s a defensive alliance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: That’s – that’s – that’s some – that’s not an army. That’s – they did this – we’re talking about different things here.
The Europeans need to come together, in my opinion, and have just a much stronger message towards Putin instead of finger wagging at us about what we’re willing to give or not give in a peace deal.
Again, I tell them, look, if you want a seat at the table, earn it. The Ukrainians have earned it. The Ukrainians have impressed everybody for the last three years. They’ve fought valiantly and courageously. They’ve earned my respect. They earned that seat at the table. We need to listen to their – to what they want. We listened to Zelenskyy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. You said that both President Trump and Vice President Vance were clear, nothing is off the table. However, the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, did seem, in Brussels, to take things quite explicitly off the table. He said the U.S. does not want Ukraine in NATO and that Ukraine would not return to its pre-2014 borders, which acknowledges giving up some of Crimea and potentially the east.
Do you think offering concessions before negotiations begin is a good strategy here?
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Yes, the – I think you have to listen to the White House as a whole. They walked – they walked those back and –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: And – and made it clear that nothing is off the – nothing is off the table. So, no, you walk into a negotiation with everything on the table and I think that’s exactly what this White House is doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: It’s less than a month since this administration has been in power and they want to move fast. And everybody’s a little nervous. But I think they should be much more optimistic than they should be nervous.
You needed a seismic shift here. This was not a sustainable operation in Ukraine. If Kamala Harris had been president, you’d be going along the same lines, which is basically funding this war until every Ukrainian is dead. That’s not an end that we can accept.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So –
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: There has to be some talk of negotiation. And I’ll remind the American people, too, from our perspective, from American strategic deterrent’s perspective, even getting Putin to that table to talk about an end to the war is –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Is a massive strategic win for us because it establishes back our deterrents over time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, do you know that he is actually committing to come to the table? We don’t have a commitment to actually negotiate from Vladimir Putin.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: No, we don’t.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: You know what would be really helpful? What I said before, if the EU was uncomfortably aggressive about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Got it.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Again, Putin only responds to power. And this is – this is what I remind western leaders here, too. Western – westerners don’t speak that language. Westerns talk about negotiations and, you know, and good moral values that we share and we believe each other.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: That’s not how the east works. They only respond to power.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, OK, on that point, Vladimir Putin, it sounds like you would agree, is an accused war criminal. He is a dictator. There is a warrant out for his arrest, as you know. He invaded Ukraine. He is clearly a U.S. adversary.
But this past week President Trump said he’d love to have Putin back in the G-8, which would make him, again, a peer global leader. President Trump floated inviting him to the U.S. or even visiting Russia himself. Do you think any of that is appropriate?
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: It’s more appropriate than not talking to him for the last two years, which is what President Biden did. Who did that help? It hasn’t – it hasn’t gotten us anywhere.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Talking is different than inviting him to the United States.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Right. Sure. I mean, you can parse it out however you like. But the reality is, is you’re going to have to get him to the table somehow, right? And there’s a carrot and a stick approach. Trump can use a lot – can use a lot of leverage. And then the Europeans can use a lot more leverage. But you also have that carrot approach. And Trump is good at that. He’s good at flattering people in order to get them to the table. That is what we need. Whether we like it or not, that’s what we need.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But flattering a very brutal dictator who is pretty cunning, frankly, you really think that’s a winning strategy?
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: I mean, he’s not that cunning. He’s fought a – it was a war that has destroyed his society, killed hundreds of thousands of Russians. He’s made a massive mistake and miscalculation. He’s not – he’s not as clever as maybe we are giving him credit for.
I think let Trump do his campaign promise and play this out. Look, nobody is going to take advantage of Donald Trump. And General Kellogg made that very clear because that was a question Europeans asked him, you know, are we – are you going to sell out just to get a deal, just to get a deal because of the campaign promise. Kellogg just laughed at that. He’s like, there is no way. There is absolutely no way that Donald Trump will be seen – he will not let himself go down in history as having sold out to Putin. He will not let that happen. He believes – just for the sake of his own legacy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: But he does care about lasting peace here and lasting European peace.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But I think you know some of the things Europeans point to is the fact that the United States cut out our allied government in Afghanistan from the negotiation Donald Trump cut with the Taliban. They point back to that and say, don’t do this again.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Sure. And I criticized that decision, too.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: But that’s just not what’s happening now. This is a vastly different situation. I mean Europeans have all sorts of opinions. The Ukrainians, I think, are very optimistic, as they should be. We’ve had some very good conversations. Some very realistic conversations. And I’m very excite and optimistic about what can happen here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman Crenshaw, thank you for joining us.
REPRESENTATIVE DAN CRENSHAW: Thanks for having me.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Coming up next, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Jeanne Shaheen.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We also spoke with New Hampshire Democrat Jeanne Shaheen while she was in Munich, focusing on the negotiations to end the war in Ukraine, as well as bipartisan efforts in the Senate to help Ukraine.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In terms of negotiations, there were some comments made by President Trump this week. The defense secretary said returning to Ukraine’s pre-2014 borders is unrealistic. He’s suggesting that maybe the east and another part of Ukraine and Crimea will be taken by Russia. Why do you think there was this plan to give concessions before talks begin?
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Well, I think it was a mixed message coming from the administration. On the one hand you heard Secretary Hegseth saying they were going to take NATO off the table, that Ukraine needed to give up territory, and on the other hand you had Vice President Vance saying that everything should be on the table, including the possibility of putting boots on the ground in Ukraine.
So, it’s a mixed message. I hope that the upshot of that is that we are going to do everything we can to support Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In terms of what Congress can do, are your hands tied here or are some of your Republican colleagues willing to put something, perhaps, in an upcoming defense bill, for example, that might help Ukraine?
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: Well, I think that’s one option. One of the things that we’re talking about doing right away is making some statements on the – the repossession of assets by Russia that are held in the United States and in Europe and the importance of having those assets go to Ukraine to help both with the execution of the military conflict, but also to think about rebuilding.
Again, there’s bipartisan support. There was bipartisan support for the bill and there’s bipartisan support to continue to try and ensure that those assets from Russia get repaid to Ukraine because Russia is really the aggressor here and we need to hold Vladimir Putin accountable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, your Republican counterpart, Roger Wicker, he is the chair of the Armed Services Committee, was really sharp in his comments at Munich. He was saying, he was puzzled, he was disturbed by what the defense secretary, a member of his own party, had said about Ukraine. He was very clear that what Vladimir Putin is doing, he said, is absolutely out of Adolf Hitler’s playbook. Those are sharp words considering the president of the United States says he wants to meet face-to-face to Vladimir Putin and possibly bring him to the White House.
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: Well, they are sharp words and they are very much justified. Regardless of what President Trump may be doing to try and lay the groundwork for any future negotiations, the fact is there is strong bipartisan support in Congress to help Ukraine in this unfair war that Russia has initiated. And I think Senator Wicker’s comments are very important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At the conference you’re at, you were able to speak with European leaders. What are they saying to you about their view of America now?
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: Well, we had a chance to meet with representatives from Britain, from Canada, not a European country but also very concerned about Ukraine, with people from the Balkan countries, with President Zelenskyy, obviously. And there is a great deal of concern about the U.S. position on Ukraine.
At the panel that we had with President Zelenskyy, we talked about the importance of Europe and the United States acting in concert so that we can hold Putin accountable with sanctions so that we can – so that there is no daylight between the United States and our NATO allies and our European allies. Clearly that’s what Vladimir Putin has been trying to do throughout this conflict, and we need to make it clear that that is not going to happen, that we are going to work together, and we are going to support Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does Congress need to be any part of approving this deal President Trump says he wants to take possession of some of the critical minerals that Ukraine has inside their territory? He says he wants to use that as sort of repayment for what the U.S. has spent on weapons.
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: Well, I think there are some benefits to having the United States have some investments in Ukraine. That’s part of what a critical minerals deal would do. It’s not at all clear who – who has possession of those critical minerals. Some of them are in the eastern part of Ukraine where Russia controls the territory. Some of them are owned by private – actually oligarchs. There are several oligarchs who own a number of those critical mineral sites. So, I think those are details that have not yet been worked out and I have not seen the agreement that’s been put in front of President Zelenskyy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we know Zelenskyy will be discussing that with other members of the administration. We’ll stay tuned on that. But I do want to bring up something that we –
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: He –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sorry. Go ahead.
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: One of the things that, in our conversations with President Zelenskyy, President Zelenskyy reiterated nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. And I – he got reassurances from the bipartisan senators that he met with that we agree Ukraine absolutely must be part of any negotiations between Russia and the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Shaheen, thank you for your time today.
SENATOR JEANNE SHAHEEN: Thank you.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Both of our full interviews with Congressman Crenshaw and Senator Shaheen are on cbsnews.com and our YouTube channel.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week seven federal prosecutors resigned in objection after the Justice Department directed them to drop the investigation into New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who is facing charges, including bribery and conspiracy. In her resignation letter, Danielle Sassoon, the acting U.S. attorney overseeing the case, said a dismissal amounted to a quid pro quo and that the DOJ, quote, “proposes dismissing the charges against Adams in return for his assistance in enforcing the federal immigration laws.”
In response, then Acting Deputy Attorney General Emil Bove threatened her with an investigation into her conduct.
Joining us now is Maryland Democrat Jamie Raskin. He’s the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee.
This episode is highly unusual. Is there anything that you, in your role, can do about this episode and what’s happening inside Attorney General Bondi’s Justice Department?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, the Justice Department is at war with its own attorneys, its own prosecutors. And the whole episode is just saturated with corruption. It was a corruption prosecution and investigation, which led to a grand jury indictment against Eric Adams for bribery, conspiracy, other corruption charges. And then the new Department of Justice decided to squash the whole thing, basically saying to Adams, well, we will drop this case against you if you engage in certain kinds of political or policy accommodations with us.
And then, in order to complete that deeply corrupt bargain, they had to try to coerce their own lawyers to do it. But, of course, the prosecutors were saying, nothing has changed in the facts of the case and nothing has changed in the law. In fact, additional evidence was found, meaning that they were going to revise and expand the original indictment, but instead they were told to kill it for political reasons.
And so, you know, this is an outrageous violation of the rules of prosecutors and an offense against due process in a very dangerous first move for the Department of Justice to be making under the Trump people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mayor Adams, of course, claims there was no quid pro quo and that none of this was wrong, but there was the lead prosecutor, as well, on this case who resigned in objection to what’s happening. But it’s moving forward here. This is all now in the hands of a judge. Does he have leeway to prosecute?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: So, first of all, just about Danielle Sassoon. I mean that’s a very conservative U.S. attorney, and she couldn’t take it. I mean you have the most conservative prosecutors in the country resigning in opposition to this steam roller on behalf of corruption. But it’s not over yet because Judge Dale Ho does not have to accept the withdrawal of the charges, the dismissal of the charges, which seven Department of Justice attorneys resigned rather than be involved in. The head of the public integrity section, the head of the criminal division, five other lawyers said, no way, and they wrote very stinging rebukes of the attorney general and the Department of Justice in this case.
So, Judge Ho has to accept this dismissal, but he may not. He may go ahead and try to appoint another prosecutor to go ahead and, you know, go through with the indictment that was handed down by a grand jury.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Attorney General Bondi says there’s nothing wrong here, saying it was President Biden’s weaponized DOJ that went after Adams for political reasons, and only after he criticized President Biden’s immigration policies.
This is a fellow Democrat. Do you think he should be prosecuted? And how do you respond to that allegation?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: Well, first of all, the attorney general did not cite any changes in the facts of the case. She did not cite any changes in the law, because neither occurred, nor did she cite any irregularities in the investigation or the prosecution.
MARGARET BRENNAN: She’s saying it’s all made up.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: Well, then she’s – she’s mimicking her boss then, who just lies as a matter of course. One would expect more from the attorney general of the United States.
And, you know, this whole corruption attack that is an attack on the Department of Justice for engaging in corruption prosecutions could be impeachable in a different political environment. But the fact that Mayor Adams is a Democrat is neither here nor there for me. I’m against corruption across the board. It seems like Donald Trump wants to attract all of the corrupt politicians in America to his side.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So in the Oval Office President Trump – you may have seen this image – he has hung a picture, a framed picture of the front page of “The New York Post,” that has his mugshot in it from that criminal case in New York. Yesterday he also tweeted, “he who saves his country does not violate any law.”
He seems to believe that all those prosecutions against him were politically motivated and voters apparently didn’t think it mattered. He was elected with a mandate. How do you convince the public that it does matter?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: The dominant objective of this administration is corruption and lawlessness. The first thing that they did was they sacked 17 inspectors general. Those are the people who are actual corruption fighters within the departments and agencies. These are the people who ferreted out $91 billion worth of waste, fraud and abuse in the government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They argue it’s within their political power to do so.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: Oh, it – there’s no doubt it is, but they sacked them. Actually, it’s not within their political power to do so in a lawless way. They have to notify Congress first, 30 days in advance, and they have to set forth the specific reasons for why an inspector general is being fired. They never did that.
And the reason, of course, is because they want to pursue agendas of corruption across the board. They’re saying they’re not going to enforce the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. They are shutting down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which has saved American consumers $31 million in bank overdraft charges, credit card late fees from corporations completely inflated and having nothing to do with the actual charges and so on. They’re getting rid of anything in the government that supports consumers, that supports citizens against the rip-off artists who are their friends.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And there’s little Democrats can do to push back because you don’t have any political power.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: Well, we’re winning in court. More than a dozen federal injunctions and temporary restraining orders have been issued against everything from their illegal seizure of computer data and every Americans’ private data at the Treasury Department.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: To their illegal attempt to ban birthright citizenship in America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. We’ll see the –
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: We’re winning across the board. We are a country based on law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will watch what happens in those court decisions.
Thank you, Congressman Raskin.
We’ll be right back.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMIE RASKIN: You bet.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We have some happy news to report. After almost 500 days in captivity, American Israeli Segui Dekel-Chen was released yesterday, along with two other Israeli hostages. Dekel-Chen was kidnapped during the October 7th attack from the kibbutz where he lived with his two young girls and his wife. They survived the attack and yesterday he learned the name of his third daughter who was born while her father was in captivity.
And we will see you next week.
